Comments on: Real world maps vs Fantasy Maps: Which makes sense? https://worldbuildingschool.com/real-world-maps/ An online resource for building imaginary worlds. Tue, 02 Feb 2016 17:36:31 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.4.3 By: WesW https://worldbuildingschool.com/real-world-maps/#comment-4562 Tue, 02 Feb 2016 17:36:31 +0000 https://preview.worldbuildingschool.com/?p=1465#comment-4562 I understand the logic you outline for the placement of river fortifications: if the main threat by water would come from downriver, the fort should be downriver of the town proper, etc.

But what would you suggest for a coastal city, where the threat by sea could come straight in or from either direction along the shore?

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By: Sam https://worldbuildingschool.com/real-world-maps/#comment-169 Tue, 11 Aug 2015 14:55:10 +0000 https://preview.worldbuildingschool.com/?p=1465#comment-169 In reply to James Hinton.

Another minor historical point: the Tower of London wasn’t built to defend London against attack: it was built “against the restlessness of the huge and brutal populace” – essentially, to prevent revolts in London and put them down and stop them spreading should they arise, as were the other two castles (Montfichet’s and Baynard’s) built on the perimeter of London around the same time. That said, the location makes sense either way: where you’d position a castle to keep people in is much the same as where you’d put it to keep those same people out.

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By: Cody https://worldbuildingschool.com/real-world-maps/#comment-168 Wed, 01 Jul 2015 00:13:32 +0000 https://preview.worldbuildingschool.com/?p=1465#comment-168 I’ve never seen that map of Osgiliath. I’d be curious where you found it; certainly not in any books I have (and is it JRR or his son?). The maps in the book (keep in mind LOTR Isn’t a trilogy – the first three books are two ‘books’ each but it is meant to be one story) don’t show close-ups of the cities, that much is for sure. That or I am very forgetful. But never mind the latter part; let’s assume it IS what Tolkien himself (and not referring to his son) envisioned.

You’re criticising the map of a city in Middle-earth. Yes, the idea of ‘Middle earth’ (contrast ‘Middle-earth’ of Tolkien) isn’t Tolkien’s but you’re comparing a fantasy world to a real life world. Therefore you’re comparing a map of a fantasy world to a map of a real life world. Will you next be critical of the magic of the One Ring? What about the magic of Saruman? Hobbits? Elves? List goes on. If not, why criticise the maps? Attempting to compare fantasy with real life in many things (including whether it is logical or illogical) is an immediate failure (wonder why telling someone that they’re deluded and that their belief is completely illogical and not based on reality, won’t do an ounce of good…).

Elaboration with some points to remember (I’m a long time programmer and designer to a fantasy game that is around 20 years old, if you want to know but really that isn’t relevant)): it can’t be completely realistic. Sure, you CAN make it that, but it will make some things so much harder (and much more boring as well as.. real; decide what you want). The reference to magic is important, actually: magic can solve almost every single problem. Combine it with the fourth dimension (the two go together extremely well) and every seemingly illogical point is now entirely logical (for a fantasy world with magic, which funnily enough Middle-earth has). So unless you’re designing a real life world you’re going about it the wrong way. It is different to try to make a logical map that is consistent and logical within the world in question but what is consistent and logical in one world isn’t necessarily the same as different worlds. Not all worlds are based on the same ideas, though.

In the end, the question you try to answer can’t be answered one way or another; it is entirely based on what is envisioned by the designers (envision and planning, is rather important, however). As such, there isn’t one right answer (no answer is more right than any other). Also, what is illogical now might have been logical before (or logical in the future) and it goes the other way around. If there wasn’t actual evidence of dinosaurs then many would find it hard to believe that those creatures ever existed, and there would be many claiming it is a made up story. Most people today have no idea just how far technology (thinking of computers) has progressed, even in the past 25 years (major progressions!), because either a) they weren’t alive or b) they weren’t involved with them. Better example: the way the continents are laid out today… very different from what it used to be, it is thought, and I would argue it’ll change over time, further (most likely long after we’re all dead).

Just some thoughts…

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By: James Hinton https://worldbuildingschool.com/real-world-maps/#comment-167 Thu, 04 Jun 2015 13:53:38 +0000 https://preview.worldbuildingschool.com/?p=1465#comment-167 In reply to Justin Alexander.

Thanks for the added details for London. I’ll have to re-examine my criticism on that basis.

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By: James Hinton https://worldbuildingschool.com/real-world-maps/#comment-166 Thu, 04 Jun 2015 13:52:42 +0000 https://preview.worldbuildingschool.com/?p=1465#comment-166 In reply to Phersu.

Paris grew beyond its original borders, leaving the castle in the center. Osgiliath, however, never did. Still, it’s a good point. Thanks Phersu.

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By: James Hinton https://worldbuildingschool.com/real-world-maps/#comment-165 Thu, 04 Jun 2015 13:51:21 +0000 https://preview.worldbuildingschool.com/?p=1465#comment-165 In reply to Roger GS.

See my replies to Steve and Pam regarding the planned nature of Osgiliath. Thanks for the reply!

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By: James Hinton https://worldbuildingschool.com/real-world-maps/#comment-164 Thu, 04 Jun 2015 13:50:20 +0000 https://preview.worldbuildingschool.com/?p=1465#comment-164 In reply to Nathan Irving.

Too true! The majority of towns lacked walls, as they were ruinously expensive to build and maintain. They generally were only built around strategically critical locations.

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By: James Hinton https://worldbuildingschool.com/real-world-maps/#comment-163 Thu, 04 Jun 2015 13:49:07 +0000 https://preview.worldbuildingschool.com/?p=1465#comment-163 In reply to Michael Lush.

Star forts are a fascinating case of imposing personal will on the surrounding landscape. One thing I will point out about them is that they were considerably smaller than Osgiliath and still ruinous to pay for. Still, the point stands. We can impose on the landscape to some extent. Thanks for pointing this out.

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By: James Hinton https://worldbuildingschool.com/real-world-maps/#comment-162 Thu, 04 Jun 2015 13:44:50 +0000 https://preview.worldbuildingschool.com/?p=1465#comment-162 In reply to John Hooper.

Hello John.

You are correct that this was someone else’s map of Tolkein’s city. The article criticizes the map, not Tolkein himself. I’m not aware of any map of Osgiliath that Tolkein himself created.

Please see my replies to Pam and Steve (above) in regards to the planned nature of Osgiliath.

As for the bridges, the gaps you are seeing aren’t drawbridge locations, Rather, this map depicts the ruins of Osgiliath, where the bridges have by and large collapsed. Still, drawbridges would help undermine some of my criticism, so world builders should keep them in mind a solutions for their own cities.

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By: James Hinton https://worldbuildingschool.com/real-world-maps/#comment-161 Thu, 04 Jun 2015 13:38:07 +0000 https://preview.worldbuildingschool.com/?p=1465#comment-161 In reply to M.R.Kamali.

Fantastic! Thanks for sharing your research!

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